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Leadership in Colour from Shez Iqbal, Powered by Media For All [MEFA]
Leadership in Colour showcases outstanding leaders of colour sharing their personal journeys, offering valuable insights and advice, and highlights their current projects. Join us to hear from these inspiring leaders and expand your perspective on leadership.
Leadership in Colour from Shez Iqbal, Powered by Media For All [MEFA]
Episode 19 - The Power with Demi Abiola
In this candid and thought-provoking conversation, Shez Iqbal sits down with Demi Abiola, Business Investment Director at T&P Group, to talk about leadership, representation, and the real economics of diversity in the media industry.
Demi shares his journey from early days at ITV and KPMG to becoming a senior leader in media, and opens up about the challenges and opportunities for people of colour in advertising. From the post-George Floyd surge in DEI initiatives to the current risk of “box-ticking” allyship, Demi unpacks why lasting change requires intentionality — and why the business case for diversity is as powerful as the moral one.
We also explore the importance of mentorship, sponsorship over allyship, and the role of visibility in inspiring the next generation. This is an honest, insightful look at what it takes to turn performative gestures into tangible progress.
If you care about leadership, equity, and the future of the media industry, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.
Your feedback is always welcome, as we strive to enhance the content's value for you. Enjoy Leadership in Colour - Voices you may not have heard from before.
I started these conversations to discuss leadership, mentorship, growth, and so much more from voices you may not have heard from before. I hope the conversations inspire you, motivate you, and give you something to think about. It's Leadership in Colour with myself, Shezik Dahl, supported and powered by me. Welcome to Leadership in Colour. Welcome. Thank you. Glad to be here. Thank you for being here. I think it's fair to say, We had a decent chat a couple of weeks ago. And as you said before we got on the recording, it's probably quite good to just have an open conversation because there's a lot that was discussed the last time we caught up. And I almost wish that we'd recorded that conversation because you've got a lot of specific opinions. And I'm sure anyone that's tuning in today is in for a bit of a treat. So talk to me a little bit about your early years. I think we've done a similar stint. I've done just about 20 years in media. I think you said you've done what, 16, 17 years in media. Is that right?
SPEAKER_01:No, I first entered media when I was back in 2002 was my first, it was my first year. My first job in media was at Carlton sales down at 101 St. Martin's lane. Yeah. where I worked at Carlton Television for a couple of years. We then joined, it was a merger between Carlton and Granada TV sales house, and that we formed what is now ITV Sales. So I did that for a couple of years. During that period, obviously, I do have an ITV mother, and she did say to me, Can you get a proper job, please? So I left ITV to go and work at KPMG, trained to be an accountant for a couple of years. Didn't really like that and actually came back into media. And that's where I started. I started a PhD in 2005, 2005, 2006. Got it. So
SPEAKER_00:you chose to come back to media. You like media.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a bit difficult when you go from a very, if anyone remembers what, Carlton or ITV was like back in the early 2000s. It's a great place to work, full of fun people. And no disrespect to anyone who is an accountant or in the finance profession, it's a very, very, very different type of environment and atmosphere. But I would say everything in life is experiences, right? And even though my experience at KPMG wasn't for me as an individual, I got to meet some really fantastic, amazing people you know, during my time there. And, you know, like anything in life, being able to understand and read financial statements and balance sheets and all that type of stuff is invaluable in anything you do. And actually some of my, you know, some of the cohort who, you know, who I came up with, you know, some of them are partners, FDs at various organizations. So, you know, these things, these things happen for a reason. And, you know, I enjoyed my time at KPMG, but I was glad to be back rather.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and the reason why I asked that question, because most people, when I talk to them about their tenure in media, say, well, I fell into media. If I could have done something else, I would have done something else. But you actually chose, you did a little bit of media, you chose to go off and retrain, reskill, and you jumped into KPMG. As your mum says, as my mum probably would have described it as well, a proper job, right? And then you decided to do a U-turn and come back into media. So that shows the industry. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It was. I mean, I would say, though, like, you know, and this is probably relevant now as it was then. I mean, I had no concept of what a media agency was. You know, I went to, you know, Redbrick University, Leeds University. I studied politics. You know, you'd be at all the career fairs where you see you know, the Ernst and Youngs, you see all the consulting firms from Deloitte and Accenture and all of the, you know, you see a lot of these, you know, you'd have a lot of, you know, you'd have Cadbury's, Mars, you know, Unilever, all their graduate schemes, you know, you'd have a lot of those types of companies come to universities, but you'd never have, you'd never have a media agency do it. You'd never have a media agency. I think the only media agencies I saw, I think Caro, they did do something at Leeds, but, you know, Massively missing a trick because obviously there's a massive pool of talent of people who you potentially can reach. So media wasn't really on the radar at all for me personally when I was younger. It was shit. Do you know what? I need a job. What am I going to do? Oh, let's do media sales, right? And that's the way I got into it. I didn't think of it as a career. I got into it as a stopgap. before I was going to go into a career in finance.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, all right, makes sense. And what do you do now?
SPEAKER_01:So now I'm an investment, business investment director at, I was about to say M6 and Partners, but we're not M6 and Partners. We are now the T&P Group. So we recently formed M6 and the Ant Partnership to form T&P Group powered by M.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so that's your title. What's your function? What do you do?
SPEAKER_01:Just responsible for the audio and publishing investment for my clients across the agency, in a nutshell.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And if you were to dive in a little bit deeper, for those that don't really understand the industry?
SPEAKER_01:Essentially, if you're buying advertising space, either in magazines or newspapers, or if you are listening to adverts on your Kiss FM or your Capital, or you're listening to... listening to anything on Spotify. Any of those ads that are our particular clients will be involved in sort of the negotiation of how much our clients play for that particular space and the placing of the adverts within that particular reason.
SPEAKER_00:So one of the things that got me to reach out to you was this article that you wrote in Campaign. And the article, if I remember correctly, is the performative allyship is no good. We need intentionality to drive real change.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. What does that mean?
SPEAKER_00:Let's start there. I
SPEAKER_01:think, you know, we work in the most, I think we were privileged to work in the most amazing industry. You know, this industry has given me so much in terms of some of the people I've met over the years and the friendships that I formed and indeed all the organizations I've worked for. But it is hard being a black person in this industry, right? And, you know, sometimes it's only really in the last couple of years that, quite frankly, you know, I've been able to have open conversations with people about things pertaining to being black in our industry. And, you know, I hate to say it is that is that, you know, that post George Floyd moment whereby, you know, there was a real. you know, in 2020, 2021, 2022, there was a real sense of, my God, is this how you've really been feeling? Is this, you know, collectively, as not just Black, but obviously people of colour in our industry, about how some of the challenges have really came to forth. You know, you had a lot of people really opening up and talking about some of the, you know, their lived experiences and, you know, and how much being within media has affected people's mental health. You know, the racism that there is sometimes within our industry, discrimination, all of these types of things, right? I felt that across 2020, 21 and 22, there was an acknowledged industry problem or there was the industry recognized, look, you know what? There is a problem. We need to do something about it, right? Then you had the formation of a number of, you had the charter that was written by a number of organizations saying, a number of promises that they wanted to be able to keep, and it was signed by a number of the chief executives and all of those, and senior business leaders within the industry to try and address and challenge racism within media and advertising. Now, it's obviously important to remember, obviously, media and advertising does encompass a wide range of companies, right, from media owners to media agencies, and obviously even within the advertising sector, I think creative and media planning and buying have their own separate challenges i think right which maybe we'll touch upon a little bit later um but there was a lot of you know you had um a lot of proactive measures that were taken by organizations you know they formed a lot of um employee research groups to investigate look what you know what could we do to try and address some of these systemic problems that are happening and there was a real push i think by the industry you know you had the advertising association uh partnered um and did the brim report uh the brim framework rather obviously which looked at trying to create a framework for organizations to potentially address some of these challenges and to mostly there was just the element of positivity um about you know we recognize that that these issues exist and there was a real sort of you know a real collective will to try and really address some of the these problems now what i think has happened is almost like a news cycle um it's just not on people's radar it's just all the priorities people's priorities have shifted And for something that was so at the forefront, and so DEI was at the forefront of people's minds, across organizations, from senior leaders to HR departments, you know, even from a recruitment perspective. I just think the energy is completely dissipated. And now people do it more as a box ticking exercise, more than actually, do you know what, how can we really, and I suppose it's understanding how cultural diversity can really enhance our business and the business metrics for doing so. You know, we live in London, which is 40% Black Asian ethnic minorities, right? I hate using the word BAME, but for argument's sake, let's just use it at the moment. But, you know, within our industry, we have... 15%, is it? And that's the entry level. And then obviously that decreases as obviously the more senior you go across the industry. So even within our industry, we're not representative of London,
SPEAKER_02:right?
SPEAKER_01:Or even other major cities. And obviously we've got Manchester and Birmingham as well, and Leeds indeed. So there are, you know, and when I talk about performative, like there's no point I said just ticking a box. What are you actually really doing as organisations, to really address some of the challenges and problems that exist. And I think, you know, there just isn't, there isn't the will, there isn't the energy currently at the moment. I think that's a lot. I think there are obviously individuals within organisations that still want to be able to try and make, you know, maintain that momentum. But I think priorities have changed and shifted. That's just as simple as that, really.
SPEAKER_00:And it's interesting that you say that. So I caught up with Ali Owen, who set up Breaks and Finishing School a couple of weeks back. And she said something quite similar. The reality is that those organizations that are dependent on budgets from DEI or DEI-associated budgets or anything set aside by any ERGs are struggling, right? The investment in DEI or diversity, equity, and inclusion and any sort of employee resource group investment has has dwindled over the last year and that is possibly because you know exactly as you said the boxes there's been a little bit of peacocking over the last few years right where people have said well hang on a minute you know i appreciate your feeling like this but by the way this is what we're doing right and some of that was box taking some of that was genuine and i don't want to take away from those that were doing something that's quite genuine uh but there is also the fact and and i do feel like sustainability kind of gets thrown into this should get thrown into the same bucket as well. We have got an economical issue globally. You can see organizations are making larger volumes of redundancies. They're really focusing on what's coming up ahead, especially within advertising. I don't want to talk about cookies and whatever the muffin replacement is going to be. Death of the cookie. But the fact is that it has made an impact, right? It has made an impact. And then there's also just general spending. Individuals aren't spending as much. Therefore, advertisers aren't spending as much. Advertisers are really worried about when things are going to change. I hear from some that it could be Q3, could be Q4, could be a little bit further down the line. I'm not really too sure, right? I don't want to... There's not a conversation about that. The point is that can you blame organizations for pulling back some of their investment in diversity, equity, and inclusion with the backdrop of what's going on in the world?
SPEAKER_01:I can understand where you're coming from, but you know there's always going to be a reason.
SPEAKER_00:That's not my opinion.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. I agree. But there's always going to be an excuse or a reason why we can't do this or why we can't do that. There's always going to be a reason. There will always be, if it wasn't something economic, there'll be something else. I think, and this is where it's understanding the value of what diversity actually inclusion brings, right? And I understand the economics built behind that. Having a diverse workforce makes your company more productive. There's empirical evidence and research to show that diversity literally is better for you as a company and pays. And I think this is where I think the conversation and the narrative about diversity and equity and inclusion needs to not necessarily, but needs to be more focused because it should be about actually, this is better for your business, right? When you look at the pure economics of things, right? And you don't talk about it in terms of it's the right thing to do, right? Because quite frankly, People don't care whether it's the right or the wrong thing to do. They just don't care, right? But if you can show economics, actually, from a financial perspective, this is better for you to do in the long term, then people will do it. So I think actually, and this is sometimes I think maybe isn't discussed enough about when we talk about DEI, is actually the economics behind why diversity does pay. You know, Lydia Mo has done a fantastic report, the Black Pound Report, that talks about, obviously, the spending power of Black individuals in the UK economy and why, actually, as organisations, companies, you should be targeting that Black consumer. It does pay for you to be able to do that, you know? So, you know, as soon as you reframe that question and that narrative and make it more about economics, yeah, and... about the colour green, because that's what companies care about, the colour green, then actually it will shift that mindset to, oh, actually, I didn't think about it that way. And I think that's what we need to be able to do in terms of DEI. Forget being like whether it's the right or the wrong thing to do. I know some people may disagree with what I'm saying on that, because History has shown that people won't necessarily do the right thing. They just won't do it. So you have to reframe it and be like, okay, it'd be the right thing for you to do financially if you do this. Then you'll have organisations that sit up and say, well, actually, you're right. So I think the future for DER, I think it has to be rooted in those particular types of things.
SPEAKER_00:There's a fundamental issue in that, which is I always look at diversity from an ethnic perspective or a global majority perspective to, you know, I compare it to gender, right? So if you look at the growth of women around, you know, in the boardroom and the support they've had, and I'm not taking away from the fact that women still have it difficult. Women, of course, still have it difficult in the working world. But I think there's a lot that can be taken from the investment in women within the workforce and the support that's been given and how organizations have tried to get as many of them around the table as possible, where possible, to understand their viewpoint, understand their voice. And then from that has bred a lot of innovation. And I'm not too sure that we've got the same level of investment when it comes down to people of color. And having more people of color at a strategy level or a decision-making level and senior leadership level is going to help organisations change their perspective and take on that appreciation of the fact that, exactly as you said, Demi, there is money to be had here. There's money on the table. Black History Month is one month, right? We had a panel conversation, which is a previous episode with Prerna Khan and Aaron Adams from Critia, and we were talking about exactly this, which is, just do the maths, right? If you've seen an uptick from doing a little bit of um targeting of you know black people putting you know putting more black people in your ads during black history month maybe embracing uh you know that that cultural identity a little bit just a little bit for one month why wouldn't you just do that all year round there's money on the table
SPEAKER_01:right this is literally i mean i wouldn't say it's the million dollar it's the billion dollar question really right um You know, we've spoken before in the past about within our industry about C-suite, you know, the lack of people of colour at C-suite level, why that is and what organisations need to be doing about it. Because, you know, you can't be what you can't see, right? And it is really as simple as that. You know, how are you supposed to inspire the next generation of people to think, you know, if you're a person of colour entering at a graduate level and you don't see anyone who looks like you at senior levels, what are you going to think? Right. What are you going to think? So, look, I think, as I said, it is a problem. The question is what you do about it. What do you do about it?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. So what do you do about
SPEAKER_01:it? I mean, there are so many ways to tackle that question. I think one of the things we don't do is how do we do we. you know, how do we look at laterally? Do we look at other industries of other similar single sets to try and recruit people from those particular industries? Yes, advertising is unique, but there are other industries that, you know, that maybe fall in similar categories. Maybe it'd be like something like PR, music, or whatever it may be, right? How do you attract people from potentially senior people from those sectors to come into advertising? The obvious thing as well, and I sound silly, is to make sure the people that are in there, make sure you keep them in. Right. And then you mentor them and you help them grow and develop. So they become the future leaders of tomorrow instead of, you know, after three to five years, seven years, them deciding, actually, you know, we don't, you know, you know, I don't fancy this. So that I mean, that the future is obviously looking at the future. The future begins within the present. And, you know, we have to we have to keep those people within our industry because too many people leave. too many people of colour leave,
SPEAKER_00:right? So here's a question for you. So I remember a conversation I had with Raveleen Beeston, who's at Microsoft. She has this great way of looking at, what do you call it, positive discrimination, right? Although we didn't call it that in the conversation, but just for the base of this conversation. So in essence, if you've been hired into a leadership role because you're a person of colour, how do you feel about that? Her
SPEAKER_01:viewpoint... Sorry, is that saying unqualified? Because I think there's two different things. No, no, you're qualified. So you're qualified, okay. Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:so look, you're qualified, right? Apples to apples, you and another person, a white person, exactly the same. There's maybe hairs to split between you, but you get the job. Her point is, why do you care, right? Now you've been given the platform, take advantage of it. Why do you care? You've been put in that position, Clearly you're the right person for the role.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But some people, you know, I spoke to some, some others on, I'm not going to name who have a real strong opinion against that because their, their thing is, well, I don't want to be hired because I'm a person of color. I want to be hired because I'm the right person for the job. And my viewpoint is, but you were hired. That means that you were the right person for the job. Yeah. Because there was, it's not just, you were the right person for that job. You, you, there is a ripple effect that, that's been taken advantage of by putting you in that role. So it's not just to solve the problems of that role, but also perhaps to solve the problems across other roles within the organisation and the reputation or the viewpoint of that organisation. A
SPEAKER_01:couple of things. There's quite a few things to unpack. I think the thing about positive discrimination is it's a very interesting topic, right? Because I think it's important for people to remember history. Right. And where things come from and why things are the way they are, you know, um because there's a reason why there's had to be that there's had to be positive discrimination i think it's important to remember you know like slavery only ended not that long ago you know sylvester mcgee was the last transatlantic slave i think he died in like something like 1970 in 1971 something like that that's not very long ago right when we're talking about slavery right in this country and look i know i don't want to go down a route on this podcast and talk about slavery within britain and obviously how a number of institutions have been built on the back of slavery and the wealth creation within this country across various institutions has been built on the backs and blacks of slavery, right? So it's important to remember where things come from, right? And why things are the way they are. I'm going on a slight tangent, but... But I think it is important. History is such an important thing. And sometimes we forget the lessons of history and why things in the present have been shaped from what's happened in the past. So in a nutshell, my view on positive discrimination is if you are good enough for the job, then you're good enough for the job. No one is going to hire someone in an organization that is not able to deliver, especially at senior levels. There's little margin for error when it comes to things when you're at senior level. So yeah, absolutely. It's important. Positive discrimination. I've got no problem for it. If you're good enough for the job, then you're good enough for the job.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So let's turn that on its head. You're running an organization and you've got to make cuts, right? So you've got to make some redundancies. You've got to move people around. I
SPEAKER_01:can see where this question is coming from. All right, go on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Do you think that organisations should look at retaining their employees of colour and prioritise them more so? And it's a loaded question. I
SPEAKER_01:think that's a very loaded question and I think you'd have an HR, no HR department in their right mind would get involved in that question.
SPEAKER_00:But we're not
SPEAKER_01:HR, right? No, we're not HR. Look, we're not HR. I'm going to indirectly answer this question because And I wrote a phrase that's slightly different, which I thought was quite encouraging. In the recent campaign school report, I thought it was really telling that campaign didn't give a mark to those organizations that didn't supply any, basically any data on diversity, right? So if you didn't supply any data, then you wouldn't be given a school. And I think specifically, I can't remember whether it's specifically about the ethnicity pay gap, or the gender pay gap or one or both of them. And actually with the ethnicity pay gap, actually, it's still quite a few years away from being something that's measurable because of obviously the way that we collect data and the challenges that they have to do that. But I thought it was really encouraging for campaign to do that. I think it was really shows a real like, okay, what else are you doing above and beyond winning awards, you know, obtaining new clients, all of that type of stuff. You know, so I haven't answered your question yet. Look, I think, I think, Most organizations have targets in terms of where they're trying to reach, right? That goes from women, that goes from people of color. They have targets that they want, or they have aspirations about what they want the makeup of their particular agency to consist of. So I think they'll do whatever they need. They'll do what's necessary in order to try and hit those targets.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not too sure. I have to admit, I'm not too sure. I think that organizations... And I'm not saying that this is the right thing or the wrong thing. I think when you're making cuts and you're restructuring, you're looking at it purely from an accounting perspective. And in a way, that's good. That's the right thing to do, right? But there is a fact there that when you look at those restructures, because of where people of colour sit... within the organisation, i.e. there aren't as many as high up within an organisation, they're usually at a mid-level or junior, more of them get cut than their white counterparts, right? Overall as a percentage within an organisation. I've
SPEAKER_01:got to disagree with you. I mean, I think... It's difficult for me to say. I think what I would say is organisations will look at things, yeah, I think you're right, they'll look at things from an economics point of view. Whether people of colour are disproportionately affected because of that it will depend on the organisation. It's very difficult to generalise.
SPEAKER_00:It's
SPEAKER_01:very difficult to generalise. I know sometimes we've been in our WhatsApp groups discussing this and we know the opinions that some people have about that and sometimes people of colour sometimes feel a bit aggrieved about certain things like that but how organisations, what they think in terms of their makeup when they do that type of thing.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not saying that organisations take that into account. I'm just saying that because there isn't as much of an investment in people of colour or perhaps that investment has dried up a little bit, those individuals don't have as high enough scope within an organisation and therefore our impact is a little bit more. As opposed to any form of discrimination. That's not what I mean.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think then, obviously, because we talk about this a bit in our WhatsApp groups, for listeners who don't know, we are both members of MIFA. Obviously, we have a little MIFA WhatsApp group where we talk about a number. There's a number of senior people of colour leaders within the industry. And quite frankly, we talk quite openly about some of the challenges and things that go on. And one of the things that we talked, one of the conversations that happened the other day, we talked about sponsorship and mentorship and how, you know, why aren't enough organizations sponsoring and identifying talent and saying, look, you know what? We think this person in three to five years can be a partner in the agency or something like that. Let's nurture and let's do that. I just, I don't think enough organizations do that. If any, to be honest.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, it might be a case of, you know, I know that I know there are some holding groups that have actually specifically gone out and are doing those type of mentorship programs. I know. I know that it's been done. So I know that it's something within their radar. But I do think there needs to be something, I don't know, something industry-wide. I don't know how that will work. But I think you need to just identify, look, this is the next CEO for us or something in the next seven, eight years or five, six years. Just identifying that talent, nurturing it, making sure it doesn't leave the industry. I don't think we do that.
SPEAKER_00:So you think that things like the MIFA Awards or other sort of top 10, top 50, well, there aren't any top 10, sorry, but like top 50 lists try to contribute a little bit towards that?
SPEAKER_01:I think they do. I think, I think let's give a shout out. Firstly, let's give a shout out to, to, to the Red and Nikki, the MIFA family, obviously what MIFA are doing in terms of bringing together people of color, having a significant voice within our industry. And actually, you know, the growth of MIFA in the last couple of years has been phenomenal and it's great to be able to see, you know, I've personally obviously involved in the mentorship program within MIFA and, And I think actually as senior leaders within our industry, it's important to be able to help nurture those people who are behind us and to help bring them forth and to help them navigate what can be quite a tricky industry. And, you know, give... give words of wisdom and experience. You know, we've been in this industry. It's quite scary when you say like every 20 years, it's like an old man. But, you know, you've been in this industry 20 years and obviously, you know, you'll know things and you'll know how to navigate a little bit more than others, right?
SPEAKER_00:So
SPEAKER_01:I think that's really important to be able to do.
SPEAKER_00:My point was that I feel as though some of these lists contribute a bit towards that. But that said, I have recently caught up with our EIG sponsors. When I say recently, actually, sorry, that's a lie. About six months ago, I had a conversation with our sponsors for our internal EIG at Critia. And that's our CFO and our CRO. And my point to them was, I don't want any more allies. I don't need any allyship. I don't need anyone with a badge or button. What I need is sponsorship. So I'm going to show you who are the top talent within the organisation, right? So we've put together a programme internally to say, right, these are all the people that are really interested in growth. And the programme's called Elevate. Shout out to Camilla Martinez, who's really invested in that. And I think that allyship... has served its purpose, but sponsorship is the way forward. We need top talent, top talent within people of colour or the people of colour community to be spoken of within the rooms that we're not present to elevate them further and to take them forward.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's a lot easier said than done.
SPEAKER_00:Go
SPEAKER_01:on. Because you have to have... You've also got to remember those people, those seniors, they've got to... I always say anyone who's involved in DEI... We do it because it's important to us, right? From a personal point of view, it's important, obviously, because we're both people of colour. So that's the reason why we're heavily invested. If you're not heavily invested in it, I think it's quite difficult for you to be as active as maybe you want to, because there's an element of emotion in this, right? Putting everything aside, there's an element of emotion being a person of colour. It's hard. Being a black man is hard.
SPEAKER_00:but do you not think that if we go back to your points about the organization have certain targets and they need to deliver certain diversity targets and that that was there and clear from a gender perspective
SPEAKER_01:there's no jeopardy though there's no jeopardy
SPEAKER_00:so you don't think that if the board is completely if the entire c-suite are completely white and there's no ambition there to bring up people of color that that would be under question
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but there's no jeopardy though. This is the thing, right? If you don't, even if, so even like organisations, if they don't, if they have targets and they don't hit them, what's, there's nothing punitive that happens, is there? Is there?
SPEAKER_00:So that's the change that needs to happen.
SPEAKER_01:You know, but, you know, you tell me which organisations are going to sign up and say, do you know what, well, you know, it's not like there's an ombudsman that's finding, you know, finding, you know, you know, you tot up your, you know, what's it, what's the football, what's the football analogy you can use? You know, if you get, you know, get a yellow card or something and, know the fa finds the play or whatever it is there's no there's no jeopardy for agencies there's no jeopardy for um the industry to necessarily improve all there is is really a moral imperative i don't is that fair to say it's really early about morality right or what should what is the good what's the right thing to do hence the reason why this i go i go back to my point about economics right you know as soon as you introduce economics or finance into the into the equation and the discussion right it changes it You know, instead of trying to drag, it's a lot harder to take someone there by dragging them there, right? You know, it's a lot easier to take someone there, you know, if they want to go to that particular destination. And I think, as I said, within that, this whole conversation about DEI and all of the different tangents that come off that, you've got to, you know, you've got, the incentive has got to be the financial incentive for organizations. That's what I think, right? And you reframe that financial by the pure economics of it. And I think that's the only way you're really going to really affect change, really.
SPEAKER_00:So are you saying that we shouldn't somehow get some sort of tax benefits for each member of c-suite that's a person of color
SPEAKER_01:i'm not well listen my counting days my counting days are long long a long one i think you have to you have to there has to be something financial about what we do there has to there has to be all not financial but we do but there's got to be the conversation about um you know again looking at the economic benefits of diversity within organizations and how that improves your organization you know study that i'm sure they're sure there's that there's studies that have been done that show that um i work very closely with a charity called the bbi which is which is a black petitionative uh which is set up by a guy called darren miller And one of the things that they do is they have a program called MBA 30, which is about essentially trying to empower black entrepreneurs. And they've partnered with the SOAS, so School of African and Oriental Studies, along with the Stephen Lawrence Day Foundation. And they sponsor black entrepreneurs to essentially do this course. It's like a mini MBA for across a month. And you know, the purpose of doing it is obviously to be able to allow people, let's say black entrepreneurs who maybe aren't aware of some other facets of business, maybe they're not, you know, may not know about data or AI or economics or marketing. And, you know, you're able to go and like, go to SOAS, go to do this course, learn about amazing new things, be lectured by some amazing people and guest speakers. And the purpose is like all things, social mobility is everything. So education and educating people, helps improve social mobility. So I think, you know, there are lots of organisations like this that maybe perhaps need support, need sponsorship,
SPEAKER_02:you
SPEAKER_01:know. So like we've got, you know, Ali Owen, what she's doing with Brixton Finch School. What are other organisations doing to try and support these particular types of charities? Because obviously these are potentially feeders into different sort of media and advertising organisations, right? So that's just one way, for example, to be able to help the industry in that sense.
SPEAKER_00:No, totally agree. All right, so I just want to switch gears very quickly. What are you working on at the moment? What's going on at the moment? What's keeping you up at night from a work perspective?
SPEAKER_01:Keeping me up at night?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'll tell you what I'm looking forward to, actually, in the next month.
SPEAKER_00:I know what you're
SPEAKER_01:going to say. I'm looking forward to Cannes next month is what I am. And, you know, talking about Cannes, it's interesting how, and it's amazing in the last couple of years, actually, how there's now a lot of people of colour going to Cannes. I think Cannes was and still is, to be honest with you, the preserve of very, very senior people within organisations. And, you know, as a result of that, because we talked about the fact of a lack of colour at higher levels, you don't see many senior level, you don't see many people of colour, because obviously they just don't get invited by the agencies. So it's been really encouraging where, you know, you've seen Cephas Williams, they obviously do Blackout. I went to Cephas last year. You've got Black at Cannes. And there are a number of other organisations there. I think Ali sent some people as well, didn't she, to Cannes as well, some of the younger creatives. So, It's a wonderful thing to be able to go to see this type of thing happen within the industry. And I know personally, just having gone to Cannes last year and seeing groups of people of colour really enjoying the festival and getting fully involved, it's a fantastic thing to see. So me personally, I'm looking forward to Cannes. I work with the Advertising Association. So we have the Media Business course, which is in July. It's the 60th year that they're going to be doing that. And obviously, what Sharon and Suzanne are doing there is fantastic. A little shout out to both of them as well, because I work closely with the Advertising Association. They're all in Black Council as well. So feeding into some of the things, some of the recommendations that they give to the industry in terms of trying to retain attract people of color um within our industry specifically specifically obviously black people because as we well know there are obviously nuances within within color and obviously what there's no such thing as a one-size-fits-all when it comes to to that type of thing so those are two of the things that i'm looking forward to uh in in june and july
SPEAKER_00:brilliant sounds good is there anything that you feel That wasn't said. That needs
SPEAKER_01:to be said. Have we had a PG conversation? It's been quite PG.
SPEAKER_00:There's one swear word at the top, which means I've lost my child rating, but that's fine.
SPEAKER_01:I just think I would say that this industry is a fantastic industry. I think it does have its challenges, but I think it is improving. It's good to see a lot of change happening especially from a publishing perspective. You know, when you see the media leader, what Omar Oaks is doing, obviously, I think he gives a really good platform for across the range for people to give their opinions. Again, with Gideon, you know, he's been very kind. I've written a couple of articles for campaign in the past. So, and obviously they are really keen on trying to ensure that we improve diversity across all levels with him. organizations. So yes, there are challenges, but there's also great opportunity within our industry.
SPEAKER_00:So the closing tradition, Demi, is that you get to name the episode. So your title.
SPEAKER_01:Name the episode. Do you know what I'm going to call it? One of my favorite episodes is called Power after a person called james st patrick so let's call it the power episode
SPEAKER_00:the power episode yeah great to see you demi thank you