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Leadership in Colour from Shez Iqbal, Powered by Media For All [MEFA]
Leadership in Colour showcases outstanding leaders of colour sharing their personal journeys, offering valuable insights and advice, and highlights their current projects. Join us to hear from these inspiring leaders and expand your perspective on leadership.
Leadership in Colour from Shez Iqbal, Powered by Media For All [MEFA]
Episode 15 - Talk to the Person Next to You with Faisal Karmali
Ever wondered how to excel in the world of media and entertainment? Join us for an insightful episode featuring Faisal Karmali, Vice President of Digital Business Operations at Warner Bros. Discovery. Faisal shares how seizing unexpected opportunities, even with unfamiliar terms like "leaderboard," can propel your career forward. Explore the evolution of the media industry, from its Soho roots to its post-COVID transformation in Farringdon. Learn about Faisal's pivotal role in data strategy and technology centralisation during the WarnerMedia and Discovery merger, offering a rare behind-the-scenes look at one of the world’s largest media companies.
In this episode, we also dive into career development, the influence of consolidation in tech and publishing, and how these trends shape personal and professional growth. Faisal provides valuable insights into working in a global, diverse corporation while aligning with personal career goals. We explore the cultural significance of job titles and how they impact career trajectories.
The episode wraps up with a touching reflection on Faisal's upbringing in South Croydon, growing up as an Asian kid in the 1980s, and the important life lessons from a single-parent household. This episode is packed with career advice, inspiration, and cultural insights that will resonate with listeners across the world.
Your feedback is always welcome, as we strive to enhance the content's value for you. Enjoy Leadership in Colour - Voices you may not have heard from before.
I was like you know what? Because I think in my interview they said do you know what a leaderboard is? I had no idea, so I told them straight no. But you know, sometimes you do need somebody to give you a chance, obviously, but at the same time you need to take that chance, as in, you need to put yourself in front of that.
Speaker 2:I started these conversations to discuss leadership, mentorship, growth and so much more from voices you may not have heard from before. I hope the conversations inspire you, motivate you and give you something to think about. This Leadership in Colour with myself, shezik Van, is supported and powered by MIFA. Welcome to Leadership in Colour, mate, so happy to have you here. Thanks for having me man. Or happy to be here, rather right. So I appreciate the invite. So where are we right now?
Speaker 1:So this is our Warner Brothers Discovery Old Street office. It's where the CNN studios are based and some of the legacy Turner sports entertainment brands. So my unit, CNN International Commercial, is based here. So my unit, CNN International Commercial, is based here.
Speaker 2:The reality is that my relationship with Warner Brothers Discovery goes back quite a few years. Back in the day, I used to work for a certain native advertising ad tech company and I remember you had an office on Great Marlborough Street that's right, yeah, which was a beautiful office. This is not a bad office either. This is also a lovely office, but that office had I think it was turner house, turner house, correct, yeah, yeah and uh, it had a particular feel to it.
Speaker 1:I remember the editorial floor and you know it's when soho was a center of the london media industry, which I don't think is so much the case anymore. It was. It really had that kind of very much in the middle of it all kind of vibe. Um, that was great. It was a really good office. I mean pretty much every desk had its own mousetrap. You know, it was like near the tube, a lot of old buildings around, so I think it was kind of a right time to move. But we moved here in February 2020 for a month or so, obviously before we couldn't be here for a while, but then no, it's a nice space, yeah, yeah yeah old street, and farringdon looks like the new place to be, apart from the south bank, obviously, which has become really popular as well yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the organizations have moved sort of far and wide, right, yeah, but back in the day you could walk from cnn, as it was back then, yeah, all the way just over to vogue houses, uh, you know in in terms of Condé Nast, yeah, you could take a quick trip over to Dennis. Yeah, that was walking distance. Bbc as well yeah, you're right, that was there as well. So it was all going and everyone sort of spread out a bit more, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, seems to be the case, but I think you know how it is. Post-covid, shrinking footprints just seems to be the sensible thing for a lot of people to do, but I think it's still the case. I think Soho's still got some of that shine, but I think Farringdon's becoming kind of a go-to place for a lot of companies now.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely. I was actually in Farringdon again many moons ago because I used to work at the Guardian. Oh, yeah, yeah, so we had 119 Farringdon Road. But yeah, you're right, I mean it feels like a lot of organisations left and then they've come back, but actually Diageo bought Turner House and done a really really good job.
Speaker 1:It looks amazing actually.
Speaker 2:There's an element of jealousy there. It's like driving past your old home, yeah maybe and somebody's done a really good job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I was like well, well, why didn't we do it? Why didn't we do an extension?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes so much sense. Yeah, I should have put those new windows in.
Speaker 1:I had the chance. Oh my God. Yeah, you can so easily put a swimming pool in there.
Speaker 2:They've done to their lawn, it looks really good.
Speaker 1:Really. So. My name is Faisal Kormali, I'm vice president of digital business operations, and our business units kind of have a mixed name. Cnn International Commercial is our business unit, but also Warner Brothers Discovery International. So, that's everything outside the US. And not looking after it wholly but working on projects that look after a lot of centralization of tech and data product and things like that so on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 2:what does that actually mean?
Speaker 1:So, in terms of our data strategy, making sure that we have a unified view of our ecosystem outside the US, obviously the US is a very big market and they obviously have a big footprint in terms of specialist knowledge and people who work there, so they are obviously very central and future thinking. So we internationally want to make sure that we have a similar view and a similar outlook and product suite. Similar view and a similar outlook and products. Sweet. So, as Warner Brothers, warner Media sorry and Discovery joined a couple of years ago, you know, as time has gone on, it's just working out the best ways that we can be cohesive as one company which, to be honest, we're in a good spot now, producing some good products. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You certain about that. We're in a good spot now. Produce some good products. Yeah yeah, you're certain about that. Yeah yeah, absolutely. There's always going to be business challenges and you know there are a lot of business units within our company. But actually if you can create something central, you know everyone can take advantage of that, even if they do run their own business. That's absolutely fine. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and how many name changes have you gone through in the past five years?
Speaker 1:So in the past five years? In the past five years, only two. Okay, so in the past eight years since I've been here, three or four, yeah, yeah, feels like more, though. Yeah, no, it's. You know I think Time Warner, and Turner especially, has changed hands quite a few times, but that's I think. You know.
Speaker 1:Consolidation in the industry is a natural thing and that's all that has been so. We see that in a lot of tech, a lot of consolidation or big tech buying smaller tech Publishers have to do the same thing. We've got to join in to create that scale, because individually it's going to be difficult to compete in this market otherwise. So therefore it's a positive. I see it as Just part of a bigger and bigger organization, which is which is good, yes big multinational organization. It's kind of what I was aiming for in my career. I know we're gonna get to it, but kind of what I wanted to go for was to find something truly global, with good brands that I liked and people who are very interesting and diverse in every way, not just in terms of race or gender or sexual preference. It's diverse in terms of thoughts and what they do and how they do it, and so the exposure I get is really cool. Hmm, that's probably what I like about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, how'd you?
Speaker 2:how'd you feel in your car, roger? You feel like you've you've reached a point in your life, in your career, where you can sit back and be proud of your achievements, or is there still a lot of markers ahead that you're going for?
Speaker 1:No, absolutely. I can be retrospective and think you know what I did some good stuff there. I'm proud of the things that I've launched and things that.
Speaker 1:I've worked on and the teams that potentially I've built and what they're doing now and things like that. You know that is nice, but I've always looked forward as well and made sure I have some sort of ambition or a goal that I want to reach. So you know, that's the carrot for me. I have to give myself a carrot. I stick it to my head so that I can see it and then go after it. You know it, stick it to my head so that I can see it and then go after it. You know it's kind of how I've got through things, to be honest, as I've gone, is to make sure that I have something ahead of me that I'm trying to get to, and it's not like again, like you asked. It's not that I don't appreciate it now or the past, but I want to look forward as well. You know what I mean. Yeah, it's the nature of it, I guess, and it's the nature of it, I guess, and it's important, right?
Speaker 2:I think those that I look at who are doing particularly well, or those that I aspire to be a little bit more like, are all thinking a year, two years, three years, four years ahead. I do a bit of coaching, and actually it's a lot of. What we coach people on as well is where do you want to be, what do you want to be known for? So it's great to have that sort of mentality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think people are scared of having simple things as that goal, like a salary, even If you can't think of, oh, I don't know what my next job would be, I don't know if I want to chase a title or whatever it is. It can be as simple as you know what actually I'm looking for another X amount. Maybe I should think about that. That will maybe even help you define it wrong.
Speaker 1:And again, that's probably the last option is to think how much more do I want to earn, you know. But you should be looking for companies then that are you know, that keep you happy in terms of your job. You've got to be satisfied and you know, enjoy what you work, otherwise that's not going to work. There's so many factors but yeah, yeah, I mean for me it was title, but you know, job titles can mean anything in a lot of places. You know, every company is different, especially American companies and European companies, asian companies, latin American, in terms of the structures, are so different. So title, but then it's kind of more of a level that I was aiming for. So I try to always obviously step up each time I moved or internally within where I am.
Speaker 2:Because titles can translate to something quite different depending on which organization you're in. Right? I remember when I first started working, my title was something executive, account executive, my dad was like oh wow, you're an executive, but in media executive is bottom of the barrel, right Like you're kicking off. So that's my reference point to the title. Can just mean something different in different contexts.
Speaker 1:But I think, like us, I think it is US and and European. Yeah, you can kind of differentiate. It is.
Speaker 1:It is quite different thing like EP, like well, vp, but then head of now okay equivalent to VP and a lot of companies right, because you're the head of a department, which kind of makes sense. Actually, the VP is obviously quite a legacy thing that's come from US structures, but it was still I kind of I knew what was the balance. Or, you know, if I'd have gone to a startup, I would have tried to be going for MD you know.
Speaker 1:So I know that in terms of levels, md is probably a bit of a bigger role. But in terms of levels, the MD is probably a bit of a bigger role. But in terms of levels you can kind of see where everything is. And that's kind of how I, how I, interpreted what my next step needed to be or what I wanted to aspire to. You know, I mean so yeah. That's kind of how I, how I judged it.
Speaker 2:So I want to take a slight gear change. Yeah, what's the?
Speaker 1:name Faisal mean it means judge or arbitrator, apparently. But also it was the name Faisal mean. It means judge or arbitrator, apparently. But also it was the name of King Faisal of Saudi Arabia. So that's where the name became popular, I think obviously centuries ago. And the spelling of my name is F-A-I-S-A-L, which is the Arabic spelling as well. So that's kind of where it's come from.
Speaker 2:Some people spell it with a Z.
Speaker 1:Z there's E's sometimes. My name has been spelled many different ways. P-h-a-y-s-e-l was probably my favorite.
Speaker 2:Which, if you?
Speaker 1:say it sounds right Faisal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but F doesn't sound wrong either, right?
Speaker 1:It's kind of like a word puzzle. You can spell it in so many different ways.
Speaker 2:It's actually quite interesting. And how do your American colleagues say your name?
Speaker 1:Well, the common ones I get are and it's not just American colleagues, it's a lot of British- yeah, actually any nationality. Really, faisal, faisal, yes, faisal. I've not heard that one. Those are the most common ones, yeah.
Speaker 2:Any odd pronunciations, or are they as strange as they get?
Speaker 1:I think the strangest one has been Faramali.
Speaker 2:Faisal.
Speaker 1:Karamali Was that your email. Somehow I chopped off the end of my first name and attached it to my second, but it ended up being a nickname at one of my previous workplaces Faramali. Yeah, I'll run with it.
Speaker 2:It sounds like a fantastic footballer's name. I'm going to regret saying that, aren't I? No, no, no, no, no. So Faramali, no, I'm joking.
Speaker 1:Faramali.
Speaker 2:No, it's. That's very interesting. Yes, so talk to me about your upbringing then, sure.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm born and raised southwest London Okay, south-southwest London, but my mum was born in Iraq Okay, in Basra, and my dad was born in Oman, in Mathura, which is near Muscat. And then one more generation, two more generations before. We're from Oman, including my mum's side, but generationally we're from Oman, including my mum's side, but generationally we're really Indian, but part of India that is now Pakistan.
Speaker 2:We're kind of on the border of that.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of my heritage. It's quite complicated. So when people ask, I generally say I'm Arabic because my parents are both born in Arabia. But realistically, if we go back a few generations, yeah, indian as you want, and then I was born in Wimbledon. Posh kid Sorry, posh kid no not at all. It was a hospital that me and my siblings and I were all born there, because it was just a hospital.
Speaker 2:that was nice, that was a good hospital that was close by where we lived.
Speaker 1:So my parents lived in New Malden at the time but I grew up in a single-parent house with my mom looking after us in South Croydon, so not a posh kid. So growing up in the 80s in Croydon was, as you can imagine, there was some challenges there. But yeah, and then I've always been in South West London. My family is very international. We've all moved away into different countries Dubai, Seattle and Toronto but I've stayed, I've kept the family base here. Yeah, that's my background, that's my upbringing. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:What's South West? I have to ask for personal reasons and to my wife, I'm going to try and do. Croydon. A bit of justice here. So we live not too far from South Croydon. Now I have to say that it's not that bad. Now it's not, but back in the day it certainly wasn't that great.
Speaker 1:So you know, growing up in South Croydon as an Asian kid in the 80s, you know there were some challenges I had. But it's a place called Selsdon, which you probably know, because I know you live in.
Speaker 1:Purley, which is actually very nice, it's very green, it's a beautiful place. I know Croydon gets a bad rep sometimes, not just sometimes, yeah, all the time. But you know, but also my grandparents lived in West Croydon, which is where it really you know it was quite rough, so you know it was it was. It wasn't a shiny upbringing but I had a very happy childhood. My, my, my, my mother did a really good job of creating a nice, loving household, so I was lucky that side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know my brother and sister, you know, have got families now and they've moved away, but you know, it's that upbringing really that's grounded us all and made sure that you know we realise where we've come from.
Speaker 1:It's not happy and shiny, it's. You know you have to have some context sometimes. But yeah, yeah, that was my upbringing, but great, yeah, schooled there as well, Went to university in Greenwich, did my degree in marketing and communications, which actually I went into, funnily enough which is quite a rare story nowadays that people actually go into what they did with a degree. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's my history Do you tell your mum how thankful you are?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's my history. Do you tell your mum how thankful you are? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:What's that relationship like? I ask only because if you're growing up in a single-parent household, the relationship with your parents is very different, or your parents is very different to those who grow up with 2.4, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, by the way, I still talk to my dad and we're on really good terms and we're a big, happy family now, but obviously during those times it was just my mum. Well, I don't say every day, wow, my mum's so thankful, but you know, I think she knows and her pride is probably what is her biggest kind of positive from it?
Speaker 2:Is there something that you haven't said to your mum, that you'd like to say oh gosh mate, it's like a therapy session now.
Speaker 1:No, actually no, I think I tell her enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, that's fine, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, she's, she's an amazing woman, she's, she's really sorted us out.
Speaker 1:She's so strong, can't believe what she went through three bloody kids yeah on her own yeah, yeah having to start her own business, studying while growing, bringing up three kids two were teenagers, my brother and sister a bit older than me. That must have been tough. So, yeah, yeah, much respect, yeah, yeah, for sure. And much respect to anyone else who's doing that, because I know there's a few people doing that at the moment. But yeah, it was good, good upbringing. I was more than happy. Obviously, I had to work hard from a young age. My first job was 16, which is good. That's fine. So I appreciate what I have. So when I buy my watch, I don't feel guilty about that.
Speaker 2:There was a thing there, though, right. So, being someone who was working at the age of 16, did you find that you had more money in your pocket than some of your friends did, or were all your friends also working at the same age?
Speaker 1:A lot of them were no. I didn't feel like I had a really stable amount until probably my mid-thirties, to be honest.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, what was the change there? It was a change of job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where I was able to do some things and sort out some issues, and then, yeah, yeah, I've been able to kind of be alright since then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, let's talk about some of those issues. If you're okay with that, sure, yeah, I'm not going to ask you about your, your bank balance. Don't worry about it, or?
Speaker 1:your history with money.
Speaker 2:I'm not the tax man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But I remember, when we caught up last time, you reminded me that you had some, I would say, traumatic experiences. Right, I mean, there's one in particular, yeah, in terms of an accident that you had.
Speaker 1:So I finished university, had my first job out of uni, which was media sales or re-business information for Computer Weekly. So I was working there. I was in sales, which I've never done again, by the way Well, I kind of do it a bit now. But anyway, I was heading home one day Somebody tried to overtake a bus and ran me over. I broke my spine in two places, wow, and my leg was broken in about 15 places. So I was 23, 24. And actually I was out of action for two and a half years. Six surgeries over two two and a half years.
Speaker 1:So imagine I missed the middle of my 20s when you're just beginning to accelerate your career or figure out what you want to do. So that was super tough. Trying to come back in, I was very keen to come back into the industry and come back to work, but I didn't really know what to look for. I knew I wasn't enjoying that sales job before that happened. Yeah. So I came back into the industry. I didn't really know which direction I wanted to go. Again, I was saying I wasn't enjoying. I knew I wasn't enjoying sales before that.
Speaker 1:I was you know, and I had a freshly broken back. I was kind of conscious of that and don't want to jump straight in, but I knew that I needed to get going because of missing two and a half years of your career, you know. So I just looked and found whatever I could and ended up at a place called GCAT Media in ad operations. I didn't know what either of those things were Ad operations or GCAT Media, Turns out as of when I went for the interview it was the Capital Radio building in Leicester Square.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's now. Global Media and ad operations was apparently a niche that nobody was doing very well at the time, so it gave me a path to be able to forge my way and become a bit of a specialist in it, and that's where it started, and that was 2007.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:So I've been in the industry 20 years, with that gap of course. Now there Global, with GCAP as it was, I went through a merger, my first of six publisher mergers. I don't look for them, I guess maybe I just find you. Yeah, well, I don't know, I guess I get hired. Well, I was hired in my last few roles where they're in a transitionary period. It's a traditional media company, meaning it's radio, print newspapers, tv, trying to push forward the digital side of their business, and that's generally where I fit in in terms of workflow, operational, that kind of side of things and product. So I guess, because I've generally joined companies when they're in that stage, they're probably building to a point where they can sell. So who knows what the future holds, wherever I am. But that's probably why publisher movers have followed me or I've followed them, I don't know which way around.
Speaker 2:That experience, though, of Stepping out of the mix, especially in, you know, your, your 20s Hmm, how is that impacted you in terms of your relationship with work, in your relationship with people now?
Speaker 1:What it's allowed. What it's done is actually and I've always been quite a chilled dude- right, I can contest that.
Speaker 1:yeah, you know, I've always been quite I don't get headed up and stressed, or even if I do, it's not outward as much, but that experience especially gave me some context of how bad things could be. So, whichever, whatever situation I face, you know, experience especially gave me some context of how bad things could be. So, whatever situation I face personal or career I kind of have that benchmark of you know what. This could be a lot worse.
Speaker 1:Let's take a step back and realize that this isn't the end of the world, this scenario, whatever that scenario is, let's take a fresh approach to it. Or you know, actually you know what, because this isn't going to break you or make you you actually start thinking a bit more clearly about the situation and find solutions. That and I don't just think, oh, you know what, gosh, I'd have broken back, this isn't that bad, it's just something that's in there because it's set that level maybe for me isn't that bad, it's just something that's in there because it's set that level maybe for me and you don't have to go through a really bad accident to have that I don't think it's just realizing that actually, you know what. This isn't the end of the world, the scenario that you're in, that's what it's given me day to day and maybe why it's allowed me with kind of my chilled outlook, as it was, but also allowed me to have a bit more of a context on the situation that I'm in. Yeah, that's probably what it's given me in terms of my day-to-day.
Speaker 2:I think, if I think about things from a grassroots level, there have been so many times when I first started off in my career, for example, I remember getting I was in a, in a. I've been in sales jobs, in commercial jobs for, yeah, just over 20 years now, but that first job that I had, uh, which wasn't that difficult, different from rbi actually mine was at euromoney. Yeah, yeah, I remember walking around the block with my my then manager because I had, I think, my third or fourth quarter there and I just had really, really tough targets, yeah, and that seemed like the end of the world to me, right, that I wasn't going to hit these targets and therefore I'm not going to be that valuable with the organization. But the reality is is exactly as you said, right, things could be a lot worse. It's a job. At the end of the day.
Speaker 1:If I wasn't performing and I was let go because of that, then I could find something else and you know what, your career is not going to end at that point and also, if it's not something that you enjoy day to day and you're just doing it to get to that target, maybe look at a different part of the industry. That's allowed. I think people are scared of maybe taking a left turn and trying to stay completely central. You know you can take a left, I mean at operations. I had no idea what it was, but I was like you know what? Because I think in my interview they said do you know what a leaderboard is? I had no idea, so I told them straight no.
Speaker 1:But you know, sometimes you do need somebody to give you a chance, obviously, but at the same time you need to take that chance, as in, you need to put yourself in front of that. I've been using a sports analogy recently which I always butcher and I'll probably get completely wrong, but you never score any of the goals you don't shoot, or is it? You know what I mean? Yeah, you know you miss every opportunity you don't take.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean someone said that to me recently as well which is the conversation there was about cans and impossible, which is in Miami, and you know what? Some of these events are great. You will get some value from them if you're there. Yeah, you will get zero value if you're not. And and I think that you know it's exactly you're saying right, yeah, yeah, you, you, if you try to to shoot, then you'll score some of them. If you never try to shoot, you know that you're not going to score anything yeah, yeah and and also you know things like that.
Speaker 1:I don't think networking for the sake of networking is good. You have to legitimately be there as a person having a conversation, another person not trying to get something or thinking, oh what can I? You know how can I use this network? And that's how probably my network has grown is because actually I've either made friends or acquaintances within industry and you know industry colleagues who have been, who have become friends and you know, and actually that circle and that industry you know industry circle is so important. I mean pretty much how we bumped into each other along the way, right, and you can't force it. You've got to be willing to actually go there and actually just be yourself and socialize and if you've got a good character and you're actually what that person wants at that time quite easily find a job that way or even just grow your circle. In terms of if you are a commercial person, you never know where somebody's going to go.
Speaker 2:Um, so I'm going to do something that probably nobody should ever do, right, I'm going to, I'm going to let you into a couple of, I'm going to let you into the the side of a relation, our relationship on my end, oh yeah, yeah. So so I was working for a startup called um sublime, so the high impact, right. And I remember all our sales guys. I was heading up publishing or the publisher side, and all our sales guys were like, yeah, you know what? Faisal goes for the drink over here, or he's usually grabbing a coffee over there. We really want to work with CNN. Why don't you go out there?
Speaker 2:And I'm not going to lie there were moments where I did approach him. I aren't there, I'm not going to lie. There were moments where I did approach and I was like, hey, faisal, but because it wasn't really we didn't really know each other, the conversation didn't really go in, and how much can you force that sort of thing? But I have to admit, when I let that objective go and I just had a chat with you and I can't remember what the chat was, I think I think we were talking about hiring people or we were talking about growing or something or whatever and uh, and then we found out that our families um rolled around in the same circles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, back in the day it there, there was um that connection and then, of course, we built the relationship and that's the same as so many of the other you know, relationships I've got, so I think you know what you're saying is absolutely spot on absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, you can't go into sales mode, I don't. I don't think, you know, and there are some events that kind of try and force the issue a little bit and I don't think they're well received, to be honest by by by either side, but it's a mechanism to do that.
Speaker 1:Um, but you know, it's easy to say it has to happen, naturally, because you know you have to put yourself in a situation to be able to find those people if that's who you're looking for. But you know, I think if anyone looked at the six degrees of separation for somebody they're looking to get to know in this industry, you'll find someone who knows someone who knows that person. If you really wanted to try and maneuver into that situation, you probably could in a natural way. Um, I'm just thinking out loud here, but yeah, it's, yeah, it is. There's some areas you can do it where it's a bit more natural, I think.
Speaker 1:But you know, for me my network has been super important, even when there's been like challenges in in the workplace or the industry, being able to have a soundboard with someone else who's in the same situation as me to kind of you know sense, check if I'm doing this right or you know what their approach is, and so we can compare notes. That's been super important actually, especially in the last probably six, seven years when everything's in the industry's got more complicated because of privacy and all that kind of thing. It's lent itself well to being able to learn from other people, which has been good.
Speaker 2:I have to say that I'm super surprised from the evolution of publishers in particular, because 20 years ago there's no way that I could imagine that the Telegraph and the Guardian and News UK and perhaps your good self and a few others getting around a table, yeah, and and comparing notes. Of course you've got the ozone project, which does facilitate some of those conversations as well, and there's the IAB. There's, you know, the Association of Online Publishers, there's all these groups out there, but but I'm always so surprised that how open publishers are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'll tell you what it started, and I was very conscious of doing this in 2016 with GDPR, right, I think that's really where it's begun, where we realized that, as publishers, we're not necessarily always competing against each other, so we've got to start. You know, we can actually help each other and all ships rise if we can figure out, as an industry, how to do things properly. Yeah, and compare notes, and that's pretty much where it started, but it's continued and and it's continued officially and unofficially now, so where where you know, you know it has taken the form of whatsapp to be honest in terms of groups and things, so people can share information.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, there are some organizations are doing some things a bit formally as well, a bit more formally, which is great. That works, uh. But yeah, it came around from gdpr and, like, because there were so many different interpretations and you know, if we can compare and try and get to one place, that's probably pretty much where it came from.
Speaker 2:So you've got these whatsapp groups, you've got these uh, you know informal drinks, you got formal drinks, you got formal events. Yeah, so you're all. You're all, um, catching up a lot more. Would you, what would you say to someone who's coming into the industry or has been in the industry for a few years and and looking to to grow a bit, because, for them, when, when they go to one of these drinks, one of these events, it's gonna be quite daunting, right to try and break into that inner circle and it really does feel like there's an inner circle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, you don't have to force yourself into it. But at the same time, I think, depending on the scenario that you're there at that event, if you're invited by a group, or you know, if a tech partner or a publisher partner whichever side of the industry you're on or an agency partner has invited you, they'll have a group of people that they've invited. That's the beginning of that circle. If you just find someone you know and just talk to them, you're never going to get to meet that circle.
Speaker 1:If you tell that vendor or whoever it is that's brought you to that event or invited you to that event, I'll catch up with you and if you've got a space that you're entertaining all your other guests, it doesn't even have to be somebody that you potentially work with or is a potential client or somebody that you're going to sign up as a tech company. It can just be anyone, because you've got to remember, if you look at a lot of careers, people have just moved all the all around the industry so that person might end up running a team that's perfect, that has a perfect role for you, and in three, four years, right, so, um, it's. It's all about just putting yourself in that situation where you get to meet a diverse spread of people, um, no matter what they do to be honest um, you know, because you might meet someone who's in HR like why would I talk to them?
Speaker 1:well, they do recruitment, you know, probably a good person to know or something like that. You know, I'm just thinking out loud, but yeah, a lawyer, you know. But actually lawyers are so, so central to kind of everything we do in terms of partners. Now, you know, and they, they, they kind of more very much understand terms of partners now and they kind of very much understand the media side of the industry now as well because of, again, privacy. You know someone like that great profile to have as a kind of network.
Speaker 2:What about your thoughts on the fact that I mean networking with that objective in mind is one thing, yeah, but actually just go out there and be yourself as well, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't go into that situation thinking, right, who can I get to know? Right, it's just talk to the person next to you. You know, even if you don't know them, you know, a lot of these times you have a badge anyway so you can kind of get an idea. But you know, talking is in the industry, just having a chat about what each other does. I think that's super important. Again, I've been quite lucky here. I get exposure to a lot of sides of the industry here, obviously, we have a marketing team, so you know we have the buy side, the sell side, we have technology within one company. So I'm quite lucky that I get exposure to that. But those people obviously exist within all these events, not necessarily networking events, but industry events as a whole. If you sat next to someone in one of those theatres where somebody's presenting at Ad, Week next week, for example?
Speaker 1:chat to the person next year. That sounds a bit cheesy, but it's a legitimate thing If that's what you're looking for anyway. If you just want to watch the person, obviously you don't have to do that, but if you're looking to grow your network, it totally makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, absolutely. You ever had any struggles in networking or in your work, growing your network or progressing your career because of your background or your heritage?
Speaker 1:I don't think I have. I'm lucky that the fact that I've had to pause because that's good that means I've not had any overt racism in my career that I can think of. Obviously a lot of people I have been stereotyped in certain organizations I've worked for in the past as the IT guy. Oh yeah, somebody asked me to fix their printer for them Because they say, oh, he's digital, he's tech. But in terms of progress, I don't feel it. No, but in the background, I'm sure that has been the case, to be honest with you, and I think I've faced more unconscious than forthright prejudice, forthright prejudice along my career. But you know, look it's there. I speak like I do. I don't know, there's probably features, I'm from London. All these things maybe make me a slightly different profile, but no, for sure it's been there. Yeah, it's there.
Speaker 1:I know that here, for example, we're taking a real conscious effort to make sure that it changes as well. And you know, mifa is a great organization, things like that Because I'm on our diversity community yeah, on our board, our diversity board just for a couple of years. So, in terms of the opportunities that are presented here, I think the way I've described it is, we want every profile of human to consume our content. We should have those people in the room when we're trying to figure out how we get them to consume our content. We should have those people in the room when we're trying to figure out how we get them to consume our content. Absolutely, totally, makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, yeah, it's a no-brainer that one, but I say that, but it's not to a lot of companies. They'll still maybe gravitate towards what they know and look nowhere's perfect still, to be honest, to this day, even if it's the reverse, where people maybe have gone the other way and tried to only hire, diverse hires. Actually, you do need a balance. But yeah, I think again, warner Brothers, discovery have done a really good job and it's something I can sit back and not just because I work here I can say you know, here I'm proud of that initiative, diversity in the newsroom, because especially what I look after is an international team, so we do have that kind of view. It's been there. I think it's always still there a little bit, but things like this are good. That actually, you know there is path to something. I think it's less visible than it was, but it's still visible in terms of diversity at higher levels.
Speaker 2:I think the reality is that you know. I like what you said there about the fact that nowhere is perfect. Right, because the reality is that you know. I like what you said there about the fact that nowhere is perfect right, because the reality is what does perfect look like? Yeah, and we don't really know what perfect looks like, but we know when something's not right. You get a sense and a feeling when things aren't right.
Speaker 1:Totally, you're right. There's no such thing as perfect when it's effortless.
Speaker 1:Yes, when diversity, when having a diverse workforce is effortless and just a natural path, rather than so. I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of quotas. I don't want to ever think that I was hired because of the colour of my skin, which is weird for me to say. But I'd rather be on merit than somebody hiring me over somebody else who's more qualified because they need someone of color in their organization. I don't believe in that. But again, I've been quite lucky in the organizations I work for, maybe, where there has been a bit of diversity, whereas I know that there probably are organizations that need that to push them forward in that space. So, you know, I'm kind of sitting on my own fence here, but I, you know, yeah, I don't really want that to be the case, but it has to be in some places. Sorry, I probably didn't answer your question. What would you want? No, no, you did no no, no problem at all.
Speaker 2:I personally, I'm actually okay with quotas. And the reason I'm actually okay with quotas and the reason why I'm okay with quotas is, I sort of figure, well, if there are two people that are right for the role head to head, yeah. But you know, and it's a person of colour and a and a white person and you go for the person of colour because you want to invest more in minorities within your organization, because you think there's a ripple effect from hiring that person, then clearly that person is the right person to hire. So I don't see it as hitting a quota. I think the quotas are set because there's a problem that needs to be solved. But I hear what you're saying, which is actually, if there are two people and the person of color isn't as good as the white person but that person of color is hired, then they're not hired on merit.
Speaker 1:So I totally agree. There needs to be a metric or something to you know, and there are obviously reports that come out every year, but generally it's retrospective of you know what we've not done well at this level of management for diversity, whether it's male, female, other or race. Then they have to figure out how to you know. Then they have to give themselves a quota, and the fact that that's come from something they've not done right for me just feels a bit imbalanced. But you know, it's a personal opinion, absolute personal opinion, and I think if all of a sudden they go the other way, then you do need something to rebalance, that for sure, and a quota is the simplest mechanism to do that. But yeah, it's just a personal thing. For me, I would hate to think that I got a job because of the color of my skin and not not on merit, mm-hmm yeah yeah, um, let's talk a little bit about what you're doing right now, sure, so let's go back to the day job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's keeping you up at night? I sleep pretty well. Yeah, it's because you haven't got kids, mate, that's true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's probably what it is. Yeah, well, what's on my mind right now? You know, as I was mentioning, we are a very big multinational company with lots of different moving parts, lots of business units, it's you know, and everyone runs their own business, you know. So nobody is trying to run everything within that. For sure, there are a lot of business units that will run independently.
Speaker 1:But how do we create a cohesive view of Warner Brothers Discovery as a whole? And that's kind of what we've done with some of the WBD products that we're launching. So WBD Connect we've just launched, which is kind of a programmatic deal where you can buy across the portfolio. So really, for me it's kind of centralizing that the other side is ensuring our data product is continuously at the top of the game. That's really in terms of day-to-day and day job. A lot of what it is is just freshness of data, making sure our structure of how we've delivered. That is important. The rest of it is working, you know, multinationally.
Speaker 1:And again, I love this because I do get a diverse view of cultures and you know outlooks and working practices across the world, which is super interesting. You know, I was in Japan for one of our events recently and you know, just seeing that culture and you know the work ethic and it was amazing to see you know. So I'm really lucky to be exposed to all of that. But trying to create a single product that services the whole world is tricky. Hmm, because there are needs for each market. Every market has its own needs. So it's not keeping me up at night, but that's a constant is making sure that you're servicing every market that needs to be serviced at the same time, especially as I look after the operational teams as well. In terms of levels of complexity by market, that's a kind of never-ending job, but I'm glad of that, otherwise I'd be bored.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And that's what keeps me going in this role is it's ever-evolving, which is fine with me, because if I'm just sitting there doing the same thing every day and not learning anything new, then I'd probably move on. Yeah, yeah, and I totally agree move on, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I totally agree with you and I think that the reality is that people like yourself have been. You say you've been with the organization for eight years. Eight years, so I mean eight years. It's not a short stint, although the reality is that you haven't worked for the same company for eight years because the company itself is involved, so I worked for CNN for eight years. Oh, okay, eight years because the company itself is involved.
Speaker 1:So I worked for CNN for eight years. Oh okay, all right, fair enough, stay corrected.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you know everything around it has changed, right, yeah, so there have been lots and lots of opportunities to lean in on. You know whatever's going on in the wider organization, yeah, and that's got to keep you, dare I say, entertained right in your role and allow you the opportunity to keep learning. If you stay still for too long, then you become less relevant sometimes, or you feel less relevant and you can get a bit bored in your role.
Speaker 1:So there's no such thing as mission accomplished. I think in our industry there's no such thing.
Speaker 1:But there are roles where you can get into that. You can maybe take it as far as you can, and if you're not getting that progress to another level, then it is time to move on right. If every day is the same for you, Some people do enjoy that and will do that for 20 years. That's fine. Everyone is different. But I think in terms of if we're talking about trying to progress in your career, yeah, that's where you have to think to yourself okay, what's next? And again, like I was saying earlier, you can take that left field choice, maybe do something different within the industry if you wanted to. If the last two roles, for example, have been very similar and you've had to do the same thing again and again, and again and it's not something that didn't excite you or anything.
Speaker 1:Taking that left field is fine. You know what I mean. So yeah, I forgot your question.
Speaker 2:But I don't know. I don't know if there was a question. Okay, so almost coming to an end, yeah, if you were to give yourself advice at the beginning of your career, or if it's easier advice to someone else who is at the start of their career.
Speaker 1:What would that advice be? Always look for progress within your role. That doesn't necessarily mean moving up in terms of it's looking across all the different facets of the company you work for, or even the team you work for, and being and exposing yourself to all of that. I think was super important for me, um, because it gave me an idea of maybe this might be something else I'm good at or I can apply these two things together and they're all out there. Yeah, I think our industry is huge. Digital industry is massive, right and I'm not just talking about.
Speaker 1:You know the, the, the big tech, because they do hire a lot of people. You know Amazon, google matters, but you know there is such an interesting breadth of companies in our industry. Just knowing more about something that's slightly different to what your day-to-day is for me I. That's why I wish I'd kind of learnt more. And you know, you know, maybe pick some things up up earlier that I've now retrospectively, as time has gone on, had to figure out. But if I knew more I may have taken a different path. So I don't think I'd change anything in terms of my path, for example, but I wouldn't say to myself you've got to do that differently in five years' time, otherwise you're going to not do well, because obviously, whatever my path has been has taken me here and I'm and I'm happy with where I am.
Speaker 1:But, um, but you know, know more about what else is going on. Um, be inquisitive about that. For me I think that's super important. It doesn't mean you have to tap the person on the shoulder hey, what's going on with that? You can know about these things without having to kind of have to really dig into it with someone else. But I think people love to talk about what they do generally. So, if you do ask, recently I've been talking to the Warner Brothers marketing team around the data infrastructure and that kind of thing. It would really be interesting getting to know their business a little bit and just how they work. So I'm still doing that. I find that super interesting and that'll keep you more satisfied in your job as well.
Speaker 2:I think it's really really good advice. I think, especially right now, where people I mean we're in your offices now and, to be frank, there are some people that have walked past where most of them are wondering what the hell we're doing right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Who's this guy in a blazer?
Speaker 2:But super important guys. Well maybe I don't know, Of course you are.
Speaker 1:The big brother chair. Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:I didn't notice the throne, but you know it's not let's say it's not busy, so that opportunity to connect that we used to have when the offices were heaving is less so. But what people don't realize is you can, um, use slack, you can use email, you can, you know, reach out to individuals and and just say, hey, you know we haven't worked together. I, you know, I've got, I've got no agenda here. Yeah, but how do you fancy just grabbing a you know a coffee, or be a virtual coffee and and I get to know a little bit more about your business? You know you get bit, and you, I had you do that myself and you'd be surprised at how receptive people are. Absolutely, and, as you said, people like to talk about themselves but also what.
Speaker 1:Some people are so busy in there in the job that they won't just go for a coffee. Yeah, but if you think about that, if you take a step, you work in the same company, so there is something that you do that's related to what they do. So if you tie that so, so operations with marketing, right, so you know, we, we might be able to help you with some sort of tracking, or you know. You know, just explain to me how you work with this and then that begins that conversation. Because as much as we would love to give everyone some time for a coffee or you know which, which obviously we, we might do, but somebody who is day-to-day is slammed, they may not do that. So there might be another route in terms of just being able to associate by actually talking about a work scenario. Again, we work for the same company, so I think people are always more than happy to do that, and that begins that, that conversation. And that's comes back to the earlier point of talk to the person next to you.
Speaker 1:Even if there is at work, it doesn't have to be at an event or you know, yeah, you know having that diverse spread of views and and knowing more about different things, different facets of our industry, is super important.
Speaker 2:You never know what may interest you the closing tradition on this podcast is that you name the episode.
Speaker 1:Oh wow uh oh gosh, a glass room of emotion that's such a I mean, that's a perfect clickbait answer.
Speaker 2:You got others, or are you happy to go? No, no, let's think of something else.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean when you were talking earlier there's a couple of things that you said that I thought were really resonating. One was what you just said now, which you said earlier, is always just talk to the person next to you. Yeah, I don't know how that sounds to you, but something around that. Well, I mean.
Speaker 1:I think that sounds good because I'm talking to the person next to me, so talk to the person next to you works. Let's do that. Yeah, that sounds good, man.
Speaker 2:Fraser, I really appreciate your time genuinely, it's great to know you. This certainly speaks to the value of a network to be able to reach out to you Absolutely and for you to be so patient with me and my setup.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all good.
Speaker 2:Bring so much stuff into your office and some of it works, some of it didn't.
Speaker 1:Thanks for doing it, man. No, no, no, it was a pleasure. It's quite a setup you've got now, so I look forward to seeing it.
Speaker 2:I hope you enjoy the playback of this. I hope your mum listens as well.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I'll send it around. It'll make it into the family WhatsApp group, I'm sure, once you put it somewhere, mate thank you, really appreciate it, absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2:Thank you for coming in. No worries at all, take care. Speak to you soon, yeah, cheers, take care everyone. Bye.